I dont see the comparison as connecting to RC Sproul Jr., except for the coincidence that they are both alcoholics. I think you are misunderstanding me. Im not getting the disconnect going on in this thread. The EMTs told me later that they were 100% certain that I would be DOA at the hospital. By the way, he was the only individual who thought I was worthy of a promotion and signed the papers for my promotion. You responded to me that you think that Sproul 2: should be put out based on his ongoing chronic abuse behaviors, some behaviors that have not been mentioned here (including his abuse of alcohol which has put kids in harms way).. I, too, have wondered if there was something here that felt familiar to Velours abusive church experience. Thanks Refugee for your feedback. I dont really remember seeing anyone in this thread say they are anti- treatment. throw him out of the house. Most people here have already commented that churches dont know what they are doing with serious subjects and do more harm than good. This is done to build up the body of Christ unto the maturity and the unity of the faith. I dont think barbara was making a medical argument, though. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? It makes some of them feel uncomfortable for some reason. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. Sproul Jr. is receiving and that persons training/licensing. Browse by category . We are also to bear one anthers burdens, help one another, etc. Hi Dee and Deb, just a couple of things you might want to correct in this part of your post: >> Heart breaking tragedy is not an excuse for substance abuse. The question is whether anyone close to him (a) loves him enough to do the confrontation and (b) understands enough to do it well. One theme Im getting from your numerous replies, and in spite of your protests to the contrary, is that a persons alcoholism should out-weight all else, and excuse that person. I do not support enabling R.C. I quoted this post because it has both your posts in it. I found learning about that topic very helpful to me my mother was raised in a home filled with alcoholism and domestic violence). I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. Sproul 2 has his own household and is not part of his fathers household. is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. Lord have mercy. There is no reason for churches to be stuck in the Dark Ages on subjects such as substance abuse, sexual abuse, mental illness, domestic violence and a host of other prevalent problems that will come up in peoples lives. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be violated in any way.. Wasnt it radiology or something like that? We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. I have already done that. Find local and national death notices, funeral notices, obituaries, in memoriams, and acknowledgements at funeral-notices.co.uk, plus a directory of over 3,000 UK Funeral Directors He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. So its simply not true that Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant. And get involved with Al Anon. Few of them are willing and even able to do that. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) Not impressed. Yes, he was suspended, but he was suspended WITH PAY. I did some research. If it was unwise youll have to help me see it. After he was defrocked he stayed as head pastor of St. Peter Presbyterian Church but changed his and his churchs affiliation to Doug Wilsons CREC. But should RC Jr be permitted to stay in a pastoral role? Aha. You cannot reason with them because they quite literally cannot think straight. This rare disease is profoundly disabling and usually results in an early death. Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. She refused help that was quietly offered. In fact, why dont you just ask her opinion of treatment? 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.. I think God understands this. And the pile-on. I would sure like to be aware of that when conversing with you. Getting him sober wont cure his personality disorders. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! Barbara Roberts wrote: doesnt say it nearly strongly enough. Velour, Im not going to directly answer your question until I can tell the story properly with vetted sources. She died after a 10-year battle with progressive supranuclear palsy, a rare neurological disease for which there is no cure and about which little is known. (Stay Sweet), Im convinced thats exactly what Mr. and Mrs. (Vesta) Sproul have done to their Precious., Remember what happened to Gollum and his PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSSS, Velour wrote: It sounds so evil. Like they were in my lane. And lots and lots of other things that are common problems in alcoholics. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. But they also need bona fide help from people who know how to deliver it and are trained in it. they are excellent human beings. You are correct. Deborah wrote: Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Drug court was denied because he was not bad enough, not because he had felonies. @ Velour: ". I drove to the hospital right after shutting off the gas and water at our house. If nothing else, theyll get a breather. Not sorry I did, either. and me: They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. I dont think we can assume that a person not mentioning getting treatment in a blog post means they dont believe in people getting treatment. He needs to make amends to all of the people he hurt and to confess publicly at the churches where he pastored about the damage he did. Parental instincts are to protect your child at all costs. very things, along with allowing a number of guys to use her as they chose, which often put her childrens lives in jeopardy. 13 God judges[b] those outside. any man who drives drunk with his own children in the car has got more problems than just alcoholism, yes. This issue of RC Jr having suffered tragedies (the loss of his wife in 2011 to cancer, the loss of his daughter in 2012), has been brought up here and elsewhere repeatedly. Awful. Gossip and Condemnation of others is no less sinful than is murder. 104:1415). Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. I have an occasional drink, but honestly can barely muster up the desire for that, given what Ive seen. Like Mr Sin-Leveler higher in the thread, I just chalked that up to Christianese Boilerplate. He is now a wonderful father and husband. You intentionally ignored what I posted. It took rescue workers 2-1/2 hours to cut us out of the wreckage. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. Best to ignore the barbs. One may be a choice, the other, an illness. In time they were each restored, one after repentance and one after a time in prison. They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. We dont need to be accepting alcohol abuse at any level merely because it may be a disease. This is inexcusable and seriously hurts your credibility. This assumes that the prior trauma is causing the current opinion, which may or may not be the case, and it assumes that the idea (water) is drawn from a poisoned well (someone with prior trauma) and therefore is tainted not because of what is said but rather because of who said it. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? Drunkenness is also condemned. At some point, the alcoholic can drink huge quantities without seeming effect. That was not my post or quote. More setting up for But Everybodys Doing It!? He is now a wonderful father and husband. But sometimes thats where we end up. I just figured that H.A. Unfortunately, in spite of yearsof problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake,it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. But please dont assume that I am not for treatment. False guilt attaches to many people in this area because some traditions have prescribed a rule against alcohol when no such law is present in the Bible. Even Sproul Jr says so. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. Can you please identify the comment? 1. I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. During all my time of distress, nobody in the church was there for me, whether inside or outside a brick building with a cross and steeple. youll follow his example. I mentioned in a post on there that your blog (among a few other ones Ive seen) either ban the use of the word or topic of Codependency, or make the incorrect claim that it is victim blaming.. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. I agree with this. I dont know whether theres a formal definition, or even consensus, on what makes an alcoholic. That has nothing to do with your situation, which we do not know about, nor anything to do with what you have said since you have not said any of those things. However, this particular distortion of guilt feelings can be complicated since authentic guilt may occur even if a person drinks without ever becoming drunk. So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? Those children need help as well. "Who will pay for the SBCs abuse reforms over the long term? So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Church attendance wont cure much of anything, but the people of the church should support one another through thick and thin. Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. She can run her blog how she likes. I realize that you and I may not ever come to a point of complete agreement. It is a gift. No one would have faulted Sproul for signing up for an eHarmony or Christian Mingle account. Relationships and social interactions matter to many people. Too many churches are already a breeding ground for guilt, shame, coercion, manipulation, etc. Sopy (We lived out in the country.) I never laughed so hard in my life as reading that book. The street is a two-laner through Fifties-vintage tract homes, and I was eastbound somewhere between Brookhurst & Euclid when I noticed the headlights coming towards me looked WRONG. The authors said said that RC Jnr needs serous treatment which I assume was a typo because they meant he needs serious treatment., Serous means to do with blood. (And its my understanding that that is the exact attitude of RC Jr. and his followers towards alcoholics in their midst, including a couple of young men who came to learn from him at the Highlands Study Center. Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida He was also known to turn a blind eye to drunk driving. Thank God it was always so late, thus basically no traffic. I see that, Velour. Dr. R.C. Sure, those consequences may be really really hard. Divorce would go beyond that to Its the end of the road.. Sproul being terminated from his job for a litany of abuses and disqualifying behaviors. Through the Bible, the word of God, proper and needful organization and administration are provide the body of Christ believers. I think that is all what she was getting at, her basic point. I have a common interest with one individual vintage automobiles. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. What was it like in my Patriarchal home, you ask? However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. If any are reading and know what Im talking about, please contact me. im sorry this is happening, dee. I could be paving the path to hell for them. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. I dont know a lot about Sproul Sr, but Ive always been led to understand that he is a God-fearing man and pastor. And looking at this from a third angle: Even if the person may have been hurt they may still be absolutely correct and objective in what they say. Barbs and sarcasm are a coping mechanism Ive developed from everything Ive been through. Sprouls case and how he should be treated, that I NEVER said. That will certainly be my prayer for him, his family, former church members that he has harmed, and present church members that he is harming. Doesnt calling us to repent mean that you are, by your own reasoning, admitting to your own misperception of Gods holiness? Thank you, Christiane, for your wise words. For all that you talked about how you knew about recovery programs, you showed a lack of knowledge about Al-Anon (for the family and friends of problem drinkers) and said to Lisa who posted here what they would tell her to do if she went, including that sponsors would advocate separation. Like RC2, he drove around drunk with our grandkids in the car. It was obvious that the other poster had replied out of their own painful experience. ^The quote above belongs to Daisy, not Gail, and there was a goof in the block quotes. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. JA, I addressed that in a blog post on my Miss Daisy Blog some time ago (that my posts at Barbaras blog were censored for mentioning codependency. The process which Christ Jesus taught was not kicking someone out. If so, a shame he did. The term Dark Ages is Velours term, and one she has painted any of us with who happen to take what the Bible says literally about Matthew 18 church discipline. Hes not going to jail or treatment? More of Anne Lamotts conversion story: http://ontopofgiants.blogspot.com/2012/06/anne-lamott-on-her-conversion-to.html. The household finances are frequently a wreck too. I would take it that an alcoholic would have that same experience if they went to the same sort of churches I did. Velour, His whole life changed, and being with him was completely different from then on. So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? Velour wrote: 12-step groups like Al-Anon and Adult Children of Alcoholics also address these issues. That has been debunked through the years. Tragically, her parents were killed upon impact, and my friend and I were pinned in the GMC pick-up in which we were riding. It is very sad that money, power and prestige can buy one out of justice. I had surgery Monday. Not everyone can financially afford to see a MHP, either. To me, the urgency should be to get him out of ministry leadership entirely. Not that grief for the lost of his first wife and his father ought to allow him to misbehave while remaining in pastoral ministry, and it certainly doesnt excuse him from a good hard look at things he did while Denise was still living (especially when she hadnt been diagnosed as terminal), but what hes doing is classic signs of grief gone metastatic. But there is very good help for many problems that has helped and changed peoples lives. A brand of churches implies plural churches like a denomination. @ Barbara Roberts: That was applied to believers who were professing to be believers in Christ Jesus, but were living a life of open rebellion and hypocrisy. But yesterday I had to go back and let them look at a post-op problem that has arisen, and the delightful surgeon in the office who saw me was a man. Its almost midnight over here, so time to hit the sack. It only cossets him in his denial. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. He was previously married to Vesta Ann. Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. There is a difference. For me these people are PURE EVIL!! I am sorry that you are in pain and may have to have surgery. It can also be very hard to live with one. Change). Both for the substance abuser Let me explain myself. For example: Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. Sorry dear, but you couldnt be more wrong. ^ ^ f .o 1 *> * .V n ..V * ,G O *. It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. Pittsburgh. Per the sworn affidavit of the arresting Allen County Police Officer Paul Heffner he observed RC Sproul Jr driving left of the center line, failing to maintain his lane, driving off the roadway, striking a curb, and weaving. There are phone books with that same information. Velour wrote: Thats a very hard life, to put it mildly. I definitely dont agree with TULIP but this is what he and the group is a part of incuding RC Sproul Sr. teach. Crushed the left side of my skull. Hi Julie Anne, So I was only saying what the Bible says. The Bible does not teach that all sins are equal in severity. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. It wont. I have read it several times, actually. His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. She was saying he should be put out. Christian support group, made headlines in The Milpitas Post , etc, etc. Shirley Ann Downey Sproul passed away November 9, 2016 in Tucson, Arizona at the age of 84. The last surgery was done at Duke when I was a senior there. Velour wrote: It was pouring rain outside, but I gave the drink back to him and told him to take me home. youll follow his example. Hes like Driscoll and so many others. And when I did, it helped. It lets him off the hook for all the spiritual abuse and leaves him free to weasel his way back into ministry once the dust settles. RC Jr does. He said that this was one of the reasons that private and secret confession to a priest was adopted. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. If it is incorrect then Im not seeing it. In a practical sense drunk drivers express a form of contempt toward others as malevolent as any ISIS terrorist. As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. 5000 COUNTY ROAD 46A Sanford, FL ROBERT SPROUL OBITUARY Sproul, Robert R.C. Sounds like RC Sr. also needs treatment as do the non-drinkers in the family. It will help you recognize that the picture you paint about RC Jr is wishful thinking that doesnt line up with reality. No, I definitely do support them. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. Some medications break the cycle the body is running on-producing anxiety. It is impressive and respectable when one man has the confidence to tell a group of men ((NO)) to drinking when he does not want to or talking vulgar with the boys. My guess is not because RC Jr has a long history of feigning submission for the sake of appearance. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. The guy is not repentant until he is caught. I would be very surprised if he hadn't at least been required to go to a few meetings. In this issue I hope that your apparent hope is justified. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. I was never banned from her blog- you may have misunderstood my post on that at my blog. I had a wound in between my eyes that was so deep you could see the bone. Decades later, he founded Reformation Bible College to give students a foundation in God's Word during those formative years. And stealing. . Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. Beloved theologian R.C. But that wouldnt be Godly Submission. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? I am not sure that you know my background. ), Mae wrote: Thank you. I am sure RC2 was given all types of preferential treatment due his being related to RC. According to Ligonier Ministries: Dr. R.C. But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. Sproul was an advocate of Calvinism in his many print, audio, and video publications, and advocated the Thomistic (classical) approaches to Christian apologetics, less common among Reformed apologists, most of whom prefer presuppositionalism. @ Claire: Let me ask you a question, instead, Daisy. I, on the other hand, enjoy a glass of wine occasionally. Much of the information posted is inaccurate both in substance and interpretation. Erm, first time Ive ever said this but Im uncomfortable with this thread. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. 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